Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we checked in briefly with Bridge Four before joining Kaladin and Shallan for further adventures in the chasms. This week, they have to deal with the chasmfiend before they can get ready for the highstorm, which doesn’t leave much time for either activity.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 72: Selfish Reasons
Point of View: Kaladin, Shallan
Setting: the Chasms
Symbology: Pattern, Talenel, Kalak
IN WHICH Shallan’s Blade fails to scream at Kaladin; he takes the Blade and leaps out to face the chasmfiend, leading it away from Shallan; he thinks this must be what a Voidbringer looks like, then is too busy staying alive to think any more; he’s frustratingly slow without Stormlight, but still scores several hits on the chasmfiend before getting a severe leg wound; just before it finishes him, Shallan distracts it with an Illusion of herself; Kaladin tries and fails to pull in some Stormlight; Shallan distracts the chasmfiend with a larger-than-life Illusion of Kaladin, giving him time to position himself; Kaladin thrusts the Blade up through the chasmfiend’s mouth and into its brain, killing it. Shallan moves in to find Kaladin trapped, half-inside the beast’s mouth; she summons her Blade and cuts him loose, but is appalled at his condition; his leg reminds her of Balat, but she follows his instructions to bind his wounds with pieces torn from her dress; once done, they still have a highstorm to face, so Shallan uses her Blade to cut a ladder into the chasm wall and a tiny cave for them to shelter from the worst of the storm; Kaladin is resigned to letting the storm wash him away, knowing that Shallan will be (relatively) safe, but she insists that he make the effort; she makes it up to the cubby and he is almost there when the stormwall hits.
Quote of the Week
Kaladin struggled to his feet. The monster stopped smashing against the ground and with a trump surged toward him. Kaladin gripped the sword in two hands, then wavered. His leg buckled beneath him. He tried to go down on one knee, but the leg gave out completely, and he slumped to the side and narrowly avoided slicing himself with the Shardblade.
He splashed into a pool of water. In front of him, one of the spheres he’d tossed shone with a bright white light.
He reached into the water, snatching it, clutching the chilled glass. He needed that Light. Storms, his life depended on it.
Please.
The chasmfiend loomed above. Kaladin sucked in a breath, straining, like a man gasping for air. He heard… as if distantly…
Weeping.
No power entered him.
Pretty sure I expected him to at least get a trickle here, the first time I read this. And it almost broke my heart that it didn’t happen. In retrospect, though, this is at least a hint that she’s still there somewhere.
Weeping.
Commentary
This is such a great chapter. Well, a great sequence, it’s just broken up into chapters.
Whether it’s the shared danger, or a bit of clearing the air from the previous chapter, Kaladin finally relaxes (if that’s the right word!) into the verbal fencing. It’s not like he can’t do it—we’ve seen him sparring with words ever since the beginning, whether it was with Tvlakv, Syl, the bridgemen, or during his flashbacks. He’s just always been too stiff with Shallan to ever take part. So there are some great sections of dialog—banter mixed with information mixed with… just normal conversation. (Well, normal considering the setting, anyway!)
As noted above, I really almost expected Kaladin to get his powers back in this chapter. He fought with all he had to protect someone he wasn’t even sure he liked; despite his excellent instincts, there’s only so much an unenhanced human should be able to do against a chasmfiend. If ever there was a battle that ought to be rewarded by a level-up, this seemed like it… but there’s nothing. He has to fight it with nothing but human skill… and a Shardblade he doesn’t understand. Luckily, the Blade understands him!
In fact, I suppose I should be bothered by the fact that, even with the Blade and with Shallan’s Illusions to distract the beast, he actually killed a chasmfiend—something that took the best combined efforts of Dalinar, Adolin, Elhokar, and Sadeas to do. There are two justifications I set against that, though: One, the relatively close confines keep the chasmfiend from making full use of its normal agility and speed. Two, see Sanderson’s Zeroth Law: Err on the Side of Awesome.
There were so many things I want to quote, because I love the things that are happening here. I’ll limit myself to two three.
Falling stone made a beating sound on the dead chasmfiend’s armor. “You’re doing great!” Kaladin called up to her. “Keep at it!”
“When did you get so peppy?” she shouted.
“Ever since I assumed I was dead, then I suddenly wasn’t.”
“Then remind me to try to kill you once in a while,” she snapped. “If I succeed, it will make me feel better, and if I fail, it will make you feel better. Everyone wins!”
Then:
“Done?” Kaladin called up from the chasm floor.
“No,” Shallan said, “but close enough. I think we might fit.”
Kaladin was silent.
“You are coming up into the hole I just cut, Kaladin bridgeboy, chasmfiend-slayer and gloombringer.” She leaned over the side of the chasmfiend to look at him. “We are not having another stupid conversation about you dying in here while I bravely continue on. Understand?”
“I’m not sure if I can walk, Shallan,” Kaladin said with a sigh. “Let alone climb.”
“You’re going,” Shallan said, “if I have to carry you.”
He looked up, then grinned, face covered in dried violet ichor that he’d wiped away as best he could. “I’d like to see that.”
And finally this:
He looked up at the ladder cut into the rock. “You’re really going to make me climb that.”
“Yes,” she said. “For perfectly selfish reasons.”
He looked to her.
“I’m not going to have your last sight in life be a view of me standing in half a filthy dress, covered in purple blood, my hair an utter mess. It’s undignified. On your feet, bridgeboy.”
When Kaladin first had the idea to use the Shardblade to cut out the cubbyhole and the ladder to get to it, he probably did have the idea of “saving ourselves.” But I can’t help wondering if it was at the point where he started cheering her on, when he concluded that he was never going to make it, and he needed to keep faking it long enough for Shallan to make the preparations that would keep her alive.
Of course, he reckoned without Shallan’s stubbornness…
While I realize that your mileage may vary, I feel that Sanderson did a believable job of taking these two young hotheads and bringing them from yelling at each other to cooperation, and even to mutual concern and aid for one another, even given the short timeframe. Somehow, it just works for me.
Also, as was pointed out last week, Kaladin has definitely progressed toward the next Ideal, though he doesn’t know it yet. He’s now willing to fight for and protect someone he very recently loathed, all while still feeling ambivalent toward her. This is the Kaladin I love: the one who will do everything in his power to protect, even to the point of willingly sacrificing his life for someone else to live.
Stormwatch
T-minus nine days and holding…
Sprenspotting
Well, this chapter answered a question I asked two weeks ago.
The chasmfiend’s head lay nearby, massive eyes cloudy. Spren started to rise from it, like trails of smoke. The same ones as before, only… leaving?
I’m almost positive this is Significant; I just don’t know how. Are they leaving because it doesn’t need them any longer, or because whatever drew them in the first place is now gone? Or is it both?
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
“Smells awful in here,” Kaladin said weakly. “Almost as bad as you do.”
“Be glad,” Shallan said as she worked. “Here, I have a reasonably perfect specimen of a chasmfiend—with only a minor case of being dead—and I’m chopping it apart for you instead of studying it.”
“I’m eternally grateful.”
…
“We actually killed the thing.”
“Sad, I know,” she said, feeling depressed. “It was beautiful.”
Oh, Shallan. I keep trying to understand the depth of fascination which would lead her to call a critter like this “beautiful,” and how she could be so enthralled with it that she could set aside the terror of the situation to admire it. I’m sure there are people who can relate to this, but… I’m not really one of them.
I’m more in line with Kaladin’s reaction:
Looking up at the rearing, alien silhouette before him—with its too many legs, its twisted head, its segmented armor—Kaladin thought he must know what a Voidbringer looked like. Surely nothing more terrible than this could exist.
Back in TWoK, Jasnah sent Dalinar a picture from an ancient book which depicted a chasmfiend and called it a Voidbringer. Her evaluation at the time was that the artist, not knowing what a Voidbringer really looked like, had simply drawn the most horrific thing she knew of. This could either be reinforcement of that idea, or they could both be foreshadowings.
Ars Arcanum
Lots of Arcanum happening this week, starting with Shallan’s Shardblade. Now that we know about the Blades, it’s funny to read Kaladin’s thoughts; the first time around, though, this was Foreshadowing of the kind that you don’t even notice until it comes around behind and smacks you in the back of the head… many chapters later.
At least this told him one thing—Shallan wasn’t likely to be a Surgebinder. Otherwise, he suspected she’d hate this Blade as much as he did.
Makes perfect sense, as long as you don’t know what Blades are really made of, and what the difference is between this one and all the rest. There are also a couple of other hints dropped about this one being different, primarily to do with the patterns (Patterns!) which glow along the Blade. Kaladin notes it, but only thinks that he’s never seen one in the dark before. Hah!
There were some other, sadder things about this, though.
The screech he had heard in his mind when fighting alongside Adolin did not recur. It seemed a very bad sign to him. Though he did not know the meaning of that terrible sound, it was related to his bond with Syl.
Yes, it was related… Although he’s wrong about why this one doesn’t scream, he’s quite right that he only hears it from other Blades because of Syl. This, and the QOTW, just make me sad. (Fortunately for me, they also make the later resolution that much sweeter!)
The last one I have to quote (on this subject) is this:
He hesitated, regarding his face reflected in its metal. He saw corpses, friends with burning eyes. He’d refused these weapons each time one was offered to him.
But always before, it had been after the fight, or at least on the practice grounds. This was different. Besides, he wasn’t choosing to become a Shardbearer; he would only use this weapon to protect someone’s life.
Oddly enough—or maybe not—he will also finally acquire his own true Blade only when he needs it to protect another life.
Back to the arcane action… I remember thinking it was a little selfish of Shallan to insist on retrieving her satchel just so she wouldn’t lose all her drawings again—unless there was some significance to it. Which, of course, there was, and in the heat of the moment, Kaladin noticed and then forgot things. Shallan turned herself and her clothing black, to hide in the shadows—just like she did in “Taln’s” monastery cell—though of course Kaladin didn’t get to see that at all. Then she sent out the Illusion of herself, which Kaladin thought “echoed oddly” but (I suppose reasonably, in the circumstances) didn’t dwell on. I’m more surprised that he didn’t wonder about the Illusion of himself; he only thought briefly “What had he done? How had he done it?” and then apparently forgot about it. Again, I suppose it’s more or less reasonable for him to think it was something he had done inadvertently; he’s not very well educated on the various Radiant skillsets, and he’d just got what seemed convincing proof that Shallan was definitely not a Radiant. If anything, he’d gotten more accustomed to strange things happening and figuring out what he’d done later, so, okay, this could have been more of the same. It wasn’t, but it could have been.
Oh, and one more thing:
She started climbing them. Standing on one and clinging to the highest one, she summoned the Blade again and tried to cut a step even higher, but the thing was just so blasted long.
Obligingly, it shrank in her hand to the size of a much shorter sword, really a big knife.
Thank you, she thought, then cut out the next line of rock.
In retrospect, it’s so obvious! First time through, though, I was flabbergasted by that one. The whole Blade changed size for her convenience. How did it do that?? Yet another hint dropped.
Heraldic Symbolism
Talenel, the soldier: dependable, resourceful. Wow, that’s got just a few applications here! Between the fighting, the distractions, and the clever carve-out-a-cave-with-your-Shardblade notion, these two would make Talenel proud.
Kalak, the maker: resolute, builder. This is a little less obvious, but there was certainly a great deal of resolute effort to avoid dying by either of two encounters which are generally expected to be fatal.
Shipping Wars
Okay, I’ll point it out. Right at the beginning of the chapter, Kaladin shows a certain awareness of Shallan’s physical presence:
He was suddenly aware of her pressed against his back. Holding him, breath warm on his neck. She trembled, and he thought he could hear in her voice both terror and fascination at their situation.
While I personally don’t find this a very solid foundation for an actual romance, it’s there. Make of it what you will. I know, you always do… :)
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when we return to the Davar home for the last time, in Shallan’s final flashback chapter. See you in the comments!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She is currently fighting off a cold, so if things don’t make sense, cut her some slack. They made sense when she wrote them… for some definition of the word “sense,” anyway.
Does she at any point draw Kal and by so doing, change him the way she did to others?
Does she at any point draw Kal and in so doing change him like she has for others?
I’ve really not had time to post here (or even read the comments, so this might have come up already) but:
Regarding the spren leaving the chasmfiend: I’d always thought of them as anti-gravity spren or mass-reduction spren or something like that. Due to power laws, larger creatures cannot use the same shape as smaller creatures – Kaladin makes the comment a few chapters ago that the chasmfiend is “wrong” in it’s proportions for a creature of it’s size. Putting it another way, an elephant has to be slow and bulky due to its size. The weight that bones can carry is proportional to their area – so if you double the radius of a bone the weight it can carry increases by 4x. But if you double each length of a creature its weight increases by 8x. So the bigger a creature becomes the (proportionally) thicker the bones need to become.
So, what I think’s going on is that the chasmfiends (and skyeels) somehow form a bond of some particular spren that lets them get around this issue. When they die the spren leave.
I just got a crazy idea. What if the Voidbringers are surgebinders bound to odium spren.
The quote “They changed as we fought them…” Might refer to the Parshendi but they haven’t done any changing on the fly, it takes some time. But the shard blades do, and I bet the armor could too.
Maybe the old Radiants found out and decided if there are no Radiants then none of them can go to the dark side and become a Voidbringer. Maybe thats why they forcibly broke the bond, so the spren no wanted to even try to bond anyone.
@1
This is the only chapter where we see Shallan draw any sort of likeness of Kaladin. If she’s ever done so off screen we don’t know but I highly doubt it. I also don’t think her drawing of Kaladin would actually cause any change in him. Since he does see himself as a fighter and that is what she drew.
I wish I could remember if when I first read WoR, I knew that the weeping was from Syl. I may have picked that up since I did think that the scream Kaladin heard in his head when he fell into the chasms was Syl’s. I know that I did not deduce that a KR’s bonded spren is a physical form of the KR’s spren.
That has deep moral implications. While in its sword spren, a spren could potentially kill many living things. When the KR releases the Shardblade (and thus the spren returns to a different form) does the spren remember the killing? Is it bothered by the killing? The two spren we have seen the most (Syl and Pattern) seem to have some sort of emotional empathy. In that sense they are unlike Data in StNG. I have to wonder if the killing somehow adversely affects the spren.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
As a natives of Roshar it seems likely that Parshendi have gemhearts. It would also play into their reverence of corpses and the forms could be luring different Spren into the gemhearts.
There was one more hint as to the nature of Shardblades that hasn’t been mentioned yet.
I missed all this on my initial read-though. The way Shallan kept cutting off her thoughts in mid-sentence made her a great voice for foreshadowing. She was constantly saying or doing things without explanation and when confronted, wouldn’t even acknowledge that the things happened.
So if Kallan’s actions are still not enough to sever his bond with Syl, then what did the KRs have to do to destroy their bonds? Is it possible for a bond to be given up? Do both sides need to agree?
#7 – @Doctorstormblessed – I think that’s a really interesting theory, and in some ways it makes sense. Unfortunately though, I think that if the Parshendi had gemhearts the constant fighting (and being cut open, tossed in chasms, etc.) would have revealed them. Also, given how common Parshmen are in their world there’s little chance that something like that would be unknown to the Alethi.
@9, I was under the impression that the bond with Syl was severed and she reestablished it when he completed the second level of oaths. Maybe the Recreance was as simple as the KR renouncing their individual oaths, which in effect, killed their spren.
Well, the line at the end of the book suggests that spren-death isn’t as clear-cut as it is for physical creatures. Syl says “I was only as dead as your oaths”, implying that if someone came back from the Recreance and re-established their oaths, the spren could un-die and the connection could be repaired.
Syl was always there, she was just powerless until the oaths were re-established. It wasn’t just the 3rd oath that Elhokar’s rescue embodied. The first was remade when Kaladin decided that yeah, Elhokar isn’t a good king, and probably ought to step aside, removing him permanently isn’t right. The second came up when he chose to stand for the (injured, totally wasted) king who physically could not defend himself. And the 3rd was directly stated.
Simpol @@.-@ – The thought has occurred to me, as one possible impetus for the Recreance. It’s a valid theory at this point, IMO. I’d have said we probably won’t find out until several books down the line, but WoR took me by surprise in the answered-questions department, so I don’t know. We might find out next year already!
AndrewHB @6 – We really didn’t know it was Syl weeping, though in retrospect it’s obvious. On a first read, it’s a question that occurred to at least some readers, and made some of us hopeful that maybe she wasn’t totally gone…
About the moral implications of spren=Blades: I think that’s (part of) why it’s so important that the Knight be in full accord with the Ideals of his Order. We got into some big debates about whether Syl had any right to impose her morality on Kaladin, but this is something we left out. If the human and the spren are not in unity regarding when and why it’s okay to kill, you could end up with the human using the spren to do things completely anathema to its nature. That would, I think, be a horrible thing; far better to break the bond, as painful as that is. Otherwise, the spren become slaves and tools. Which is another thing that may factor into the whole Recreance question.
IamJoseph @8 – GAH!! I love that one, and I cannot believe I left it out! I fully intended to touch on that one in the Ars Arcanum section, because it’s one of those so-obvious-in-hindsight things that most of us just skipped right over. We’re so used to Shallan dropping thoughts in the middle, that it’s easy to see this as just another one of those.
@9 and @11 – The fact that they were full Knights, with all five Ideals, may have something to do with it as well.
@9 If I remember the vision of the Recreance right, the bonds seemed to be broken as the Knights cast aside their armor and shardblades. Assuming that’s the case, the Knights only needed an act of will to break the bond. Though would the blade appear if it wasn’t already manifest when the oaths were broken?
I wonder if there were any dead blades before the Recreance. It seems pretty unlikely that no KR had ever broken their oaths after getting a shardblade.
The first time reading this chapter I completely missed all of the hints and foreshadowing Sanderson wove into it. I was way too engrossed in the story. He did an amazing job with this chasm sequence.
“There are some things you can’t share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them.” – Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone.
This is what I immediately thought of when reading about your thoughts on Shalladin coming to friendly terms. They would have gotten there eventually; the chasm just sped up the process. But now, now they have become Fire-Forged Friends! So much cooler.
This chapter serves to exercise my suspension of disbelief. It also highlights about when I started to draw away from Kaladin, as a character.
I do not believe a mere man can defeat a chasmfiend, a creature who has killed 50 men, toss Adolin in the air like a puppet and practically scrambled the king in mere minutes can be single-handily defeated by powerless Kaladin with a Blade and an illusion. It breaks any notion we were previously given chamsfiends are dangerous: any further appearance of a chamsfiend will be treated as a none issue as this one got killed ridiculously easily.
I do not believe “close quarters” is enough to explain it.
I do not believe injured Kaladin can climb 80 feet on his leg nor can I believe he spent a night with a tourniquet without ruining his leg. I cannot believe he managed to walk on the leg for miles on the next morning.
The First Rule of Awesome doesn’t work for me: I need to have a decent explanation as to why this character is particularly awesome. It struck to me Kaladin is awesome simply because he is Kaladin and this chapter, combined with the Elhokar’s rescue, pushed it too far for my personal tastes.
@14
We know that if a human dies the spren that’s bonded to that person wont be hurt in the same way as if the human breaks their oath. I feel like this is the only type of broken bond that the spren really knew of before. They seem to be really scared by what the KR did during the Recreance. I have this weird idea that maybe as long as the Knights kept there oaths and as long as they kept their bond to the spren that they might not have died. So unless a Knight was killed they just kept fight and the spren never had to deal with broken bonds before. But I feel like I’m missing something with this picture.
It’s been a while since I last reread The Way of Kings, but while there may be some erring on the side of awesome, having the chasmfiend in the narrow corridor is what saves Kaladin here – constantly throughout this chapter the chasmfiend has to waste precious moments arranging itself for each blow against Kaladin, which is enough for him to barely avoid – furthermore, it has a really hard time attacking him with the weapons it is primarily used to using, i.e. its claws and giant legs. So it constantly attacks him with its head, which is uniquely vulnerable to the fact Kaladin has a giant sword that cuts through everything and can thus penetrate all the way through to the brain.
Maybe it’s just how my brain works, but this in no way threatens to break my immersion, unlike the two chapters before this where some of Kaladin and Shallan’s statements stretched my suspension of disbelief. Obviously YMMV, as demonstrated above.
Gepeto @16 – Just a few points:
One, the close quarters kept the chasmfiend from getting a good swing at Kaladin, or it would of course have tossed him around too. But it couldn’t. See also FenrirMoridin @18.
Two, Shallan’s Illusions distracted the thing at critical moments, and of course it didn’t know they were illusions. While it was busy crushing the giant-fake-Kaladin, the normal-real-Kaladin got in position. Since the chasmfiend’s movement was restricted, it could only go backward and forward or up and down; given that constraint, when it came down, it found a Shardblade pointing up.
Three, he didn’t climb 80 feet on his leg.
Four, he didn’t have a tourniquet. (emphasis mine)
Five, it probably wasn’t “miles” the next day. They were nearing the warcamps. They also had access to the jetsam left by the storm, and that was likely where he picked up the spear he was leaning on when we first see him back at the warcamps.
That may not be enough for you to accept it, and that’s fine, but you really don’t need to make it worse than it is.
@6
I don’t remember where, but Syl has told Kaladin that she remembers killing with other humans(Radiants?) and that it was right.
@17 While one hopes the Orders would help with anyone at risk of breaking their oaths, it doesn’t seem unreasonable that one of them screwed up badly enough that their Order couldn’t help. The oaths seem like they’d be hard to keep and just because Kaladin broke his oath over a period of time doesn’t mean other knights couldn’t do it in an instant.
Kaladin here thinks Shallan can’t possibly be a Radiant because she didn’t seem like she heard screams from her shardblade. This is another example of how people make generalizing assumptions based on their own experiences, and not realize all the different circumstances that make the assumption wrong. Nevertheless, before they leave the chasms Kaladin will have a pretty strong suspicion that Shallan is a Radiant (like many other commenters I couldn’t help myself; I read ahead).
@Gepeto
You should consider that Luck is, and allways will be, a decisive factor in any fight. Maybe the surroundings did favor Kaladin here, but in the end he mainly got lucky, the chasm fiend more or less defeats itself. For a story luck or – more general – randomness is problematic. It drives a lot of events in realilty, but makes for a poor plot device if overused (for example, the sheer number of times DiCaprio should in all likelihood have died in The Revenant ruined the movie for me). Here it works for me, because it is a single event and not all that important to the story.
Lovely post as always, but my sister was appalled that you didn’t include the next line after the “Then remind me to try to kill you once in a while” bit!
How long has it been since we’ve seen Kaladin laughing?
Re: Sprenspotting: That makes me wonder…Do we ever see spren leaving dead stormform Parshendi bodies?
@@.-@ Simpol: This WoB could be relevant:
So could a human bond a voidspren without issue if they could figure out a way to do it without going into a highstorm/everstorm?
I also keep wondering about the line in one of Dalinar’s flashbacks in TWoK: “Once Sja-anat touches a spren, it acts strange”. (Then we see strange spren going into the ground and evidently animating the stone into a thunderclast.) Could “Sja-anat” – Odium? – “touch” other spren? Like some of our KR spren…?
@16 Gepeto, @23 Kah-thurak: This fight works for me partly because the victory is tempered by consequences: Kaladin does get injured and has to deal with the injury. Of course, he gets healed by a burst of Stormlight in the end, but before that we get several chapters of miserable Kaladin hobbling around.
I applaud the approach that Alice has taken on this chapter. It reveals Kaladin’s progress from a prejudiced outsider filled with anger towards a society that had mistreated him, to an enlightened being who can now include even a previously disdained Lighteyes, i.e., Shallan, in his sphere of altruistic protection. I would disagree only in the characterization of his feelings towards Shallan as ambivalent. The only ambivalence that I recall at this point in the story is her Radiant status. He had concluded in the last chapter that she is an admirable, if not remarkable, person as well as highly intelligent and talented.
@19: @23 explained it best. Yes, there might be valid reasons to explain how it was Kaladin was able to kill a deadly beast and hobble around on an injured leg in all plausibility, but this ploy has been used so often with this specific character, it has lost most of its credibility with me.
I think there’s more to the Day of Recreance than we can infer from our current knowledge. The Diagram code found in in the chapter 84 epigraph shows there has to be more.
Whatever the recreance was, it is something that Taravangian could recreate at any time to wipe out any of the new members. None of the theories I’ve heard have yet been able to reconcile with this issue.
@27 I’ve assumed the secret implies the Knights broke their oaths in response to some specific knowledge. Something that Genius Taravangian believes relearning will destroy the Orders again. That implies the Recreance was not in response to an event or specific circumstance.
Going to where she described the chasm fiend as beautiful. I would say it would be in the area of its perfection at killing and being designed or evolved. Kind of like looking at specific animals who have perfectly evolved to survive in there specific habitat.
Sorry for the Wall of Text. Not chapter related, but questions from the Austin, TX signing. Enjoy!
2/25 Sanderson Signing:
The reading was SA3, a Dalinar flashback. It was funny and we still don’t know his wife’s name. But I won’t say more until it has been made public via his newsletter or published with Team Sanderson’s permission. He didn’t say “don’t talk about this”, but I believe that’s been the standard practice.
Questions:
Do the Parshendi have gemhearts?
RAFO, but think along those lines.
My interpretation – they don’t have gemhearts, but something relates them and the creatures that do have gemhearts.
BoM – anything more about the exploding metal? Litium or Cesisum?
It’s called the Lost Metal – RAFO
Will we find out more about Adolin’s failed relationships?
A little bit.
My interpretation – not relevant to the story, so not going to be discussed in detail.
Is there any culture on Roshar that believes in abolition?
Any culture? Yes.
My interpretation – He had to think about it, so it’s not a central culture that we will see often.
Is there a concept of alcoholism in Roshar? And does Dalinar have it?
RAFO, but good question to keep thinking about.
Hint: more will become clear when the next SA flashback is made public.
Would an in-world person on Roshar interpret Jasnah’s book as advocating for the equality of men as well as women? i.e. men should read
Jasnah would be say both are equal. But the average person would not interpret it as a gender equality book.
Did NOT Ask: Can Splintered Shards be restored naturally or with intervention.
My interpretation – conversation I had with fans in the signing line reminded me that while Harmony holds 2 Shards, they have not rejoined themselves. He’s holding them, but can’t truly rejoin them. Thus, if Shards being held by one person can’t rejoin them, it would not happen naturally. Some serious magic will have to be used to force a reforming. Thus the question would get a huge RAFO.
Did NOT Ask: Is there a history of autism in Adolin’s family tree?
My interpretation – Something in the SA3 preview makes me think the illness came from the mother’s family. But more once that is public.
Other tidbits:
The research for the Rithmatist 2 is done! Will be written after SA 3.
He has many categories for the Epics, but tried to limit himself to 3 categories: matter manipulation, energy manipulation and alternate realities. Next series will focus more on the alternate realities powers. Next series will also be about one of the alternate realities Megan visited. If Sanderson had an Epic power, he would want the power to fly – because it is cool. The “smart answer” is to have the ability to create anything you needed the instant you needed it.
Q: You have a lot of Physiological and Theological thoughts in your book, how much reflexes you?
A: The thoughts reflex what Brandon is thinking about at that time, but not necessarily his beliefs. Characters need Passion. Books don’t need moralizing. Start with charterers who are passionate and the story will be better for it.
Q: What are the sizes of the Cosmere worlds vs. Earth?
A: Roshar is smaller, most others larger.
Q: How were you an educator and a writer at the same time?
A: I’m not a real educator. My wife was a school teacher. I only had one class, one night a week. So I had it easy, but that was still one of the hardest years.
Q: Do you have a thing for red-heads, since several of your female heroes have red hair?
A: I love dark-hair, because my wife Emily has dark hair. (lots of laughter)
Q: What are you reading?
A: City of Stairs, Expanse (not for the kids), and Uprooted. All are written by friends.
Other questions were asked about WoT, writing and his schedule, but this information is out in many ways, so I’m not including it.
Mark Lindberg was able to leave his phone on the signing table, so hopefully he’ll have more question answers to report later.
@30
You have made me so happy with the report that Rithmatist 2 research is done! I’ve been wanting the next book since I finished that one.
Braid_Tug @30. Thank you for asking my question about alcoholism vis-a-vis Dalinar. I will take a RAFO. When it is all said and done, I believe we will learn that Dalinar’s family has a history of alcoholism. Just my gut reaction.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@30: Thanks and thanks for asking my question. The answer is not very exhaustive, but he did say we would find out some of it. I didn’t expect it to be overly relevant to the entire story arc, just to Adolin’s character development.
It is great you think the next excerpt gives us hints for the autism. I have suspected it came from Shshshsh’s side and not Dalinar: I have also suspected she perhaps was autistic herself… which would explain Dalinar unlikely fondness of Renarin, a child he seems to have nothing in common with.
@33 Gepeto
To be honest, I think it’s more plausible that hyperbole and court rumor are as much responsible for Adolin’s reputation and the number of his failed relationships then actual failures or self-sabotage..
It could also just be that Sanderson himself doesn’t have that great a grasp on how many relationships are considered normal for one person.
SA is hardly the first series with an “undatable” character who somehow has 10-30x more romantic partners than the average real human being (see: George Castanze of Seinfield).
Gepeto @@@@@ 33 and wcarter @@@@@34 – Actually, Brandon answered that question for me at the Austin signing
Question: What’s up with Adolin’s serial dating? Does he think he is Leonardo DiCaprio?
Answer: *Brandon smiles.* (I believe its because of my Leonardo DiCaprio comment). It’s because he is young and not ready for a long term relationship. So, when a girl he is dating start to get serious, he starts to pull away and thinks of way to end it, even sabotage the relationship.
Question: So, is Shallan “the One” for Adolin?
Answer: That’s a RAFO.
Here’s my report for the Austin signing. As Braid_Tug reported, Brandon read a Dalinar flashback from Oathbringer. I cannot say anything about it because he asked that we don’t video it. But, there was someone “official” to was taping it, so I presume that it will be in YouTube or somewhere after the tour which I believe will be around April after Jordan Con which will be the last stop for his tour.
Question: Dalinar seems to be very lenient with Elhokar and Renarin but very strict with Adolin. Is that just my imagination or it is really that way?
Answer: Yes, Dalinar is more strict with Adolin. It is a flaw in Dalinar’s character. It is not about Adolin. (pause) It is also because Adolin is his heir and also in line for the throne.
(My own commentary – Though Brandon answered immediately that Dalinar is really more strict with Adolin than with Renarin and Elhokar plus admitting that it is a flaw in Dalinar’s charcter, he had to think for a few moments before he gave me the reasons. I have a feeling that he was debating between telling me its a RAFO or giving me an answer. My guess is that we will find out more in SA3 why it is that way)
Question: Does each order of Knights Radiant only have members of one gender?
Answer: No. Each order can have both genders.
Sorry, I did not ask more questions about SA. Braid_Tug did a better job than me. But, I left my notes in my car and was too exhausted to go out and get it. I had to drive 3.5 hours to get there. I had to leave work early to get to Austin on time. So, I was a bit frazzled. :-(
I hope that with the three questions I was able to ask, it helped a bit. I know that it did for me especially the one about Adolin’s serial dating. I really think Adolin was pulling a Leonardo DiCaprio. LOL Glad I was wrong on that account.
Sheilagh, wow thanks! These are great questions. So huh, I was partly right: he is sabotaging those relationships. He is pulling out of them either consciously or unconsciously. Brandon claims it is because he isn’t ready, which I would agree if he were a modern day kid, but in Alethkar, everyone marries in their teen, so why is it he isn’t ready, but everyone else is? I still think I was onto something though, as wcater said at @34, it also is possible Brandon just didn’t spend enough time crafting Adolin and is guilty of a small inconsistency here. He wanted him to be terrible at dating, but he has no notion as to how many dates is realistic, so he made it abnormal without intending to. It could also be being a Mormont, he doesn’t have a clear idea of these things.
So I was RIGHT about Dalinar as well. I knew it. I said it a few threads ago: Dalinar is harder with Adolin than with Elhokar/Renarin. I also said it seemed to be a flaw and I was right again. Though I am not sure what to think of the remainder of the answer… He says it is because Adolin is his heir, understandable, and in line with the throne, which is again understandable, but isn’t it inconsistent with his behavior with Elhokar? If this is the reason, then he should be mightily harsh with Elhokar as he is the King, not just inline so to the throne and unlikely to inherit as Adolin, considering Elhokar has a son.
So Dalinar is indeed negatively bias towards being harder with Adolin and it is a flaw. How will that come into play in book 3?
Thanks again Sheiglagh (one day you are going to have to explain what your name means). I hope it didn’t bother you too much with my load of questions, so I am glad you find one you were interested in asking yourself.
Gepeto @@@@@ 37 – you’re welcome. As for my name Sheiglagh, it’s the old Welsh word for “girl”. It is where the English name Sheila was derived and the Australian variation “sheila” which means girl also came from. To Australians, sheila is a word not a proper name.
As for Brandon overdoing Adolin’s dating, I don’t believe it was overdone. My comment about Leonardo DiCaprio was not being snarky. If you follow the celebrity beat, you already know that Leo had been serial dating supermodels beginning in his 20s. He is still single up to today.
Im not saying that Brandon was inspired by Leonardo DiCaprio’s behavior. What I’m saying is that though it is not the norm, serial dating is more common than most people think.
Hope this explains even a bit.
@38: Oh thanks for the explanation. It was a puzzling one. I used to be more celebrity savvy but somehow since having the kids my life seems to run from one catastrophe to the next one which left me little time to figure out who dates who. I had completely forgotten about Leo’s disastrous date record, but I would have hazard Adolin’s is linked to other factors entirely. Serial daters do happen, but not always for the same reasons: nothing told me, in Adolin’s POV he was doing just for the fun of it, quite the opposite. I read many various things in it and there are several plausible explanations I could come up with but none were “He’s just a player who likes to have a pretty girl dangling to his arm.”. So I’m glad I was right about this much.
As for stating Brandon over did it, I meant I somehow think the “I am not ready for a relationship” is too much of a modern concept to be used in a world where normality is to marry in your teens. Adolin is the odd one out, so why is it he isn’t ready when everyone else was years ago? Readiness or no to jump into relationships are often tied in with the cultural environment. For instances, in our world, it is normal to be single at 23, it is normal not to be married or to be childless at this age. It is even normal to not be ready to settle down with one person: most people usually tie the knot at older ages. Normality has it 29 years old is the average age for a first born child, so not being ready in your early twenties is entirely normal. It isn’t such on Alethkar.
I am thus surprised a character who’s behavior has been seen as putting a lot of effort to fit within the mold of normality, to dance with the social conventions, to express such a strong desire to belong in this society is taking such an active step outside of it. Brandon did confirm it: the relationships fail because of Adolin. He is the one who is backing away, not the girls, he is the one who is sabotaging his relationships: his POV indicates he is not entirely aware he is doing it. He isn’t ready, my next question is why?
Why are people generally not ready for relationships? I’ll have to ponder on this one some more…
I really, really like the Dalinar one. I am glad Brandon confirmed it wasn’t just my imagination. Dalinar is not the perfect father. I knew it. He has preferences. I knew it.
Gepeto @@@@@ 39 : You said:
I don’t think so. Dalinar married late. And if you really think about it, Gavilar did too considering that Elhokar is only 3 or 4 years older than Adolin.
The concept of men marrying late has been around for a long time. I don’t know the correct place in the Bible, but the Old Testament talks of older men having very young first wife. When I say first wife, I mean the first one they have taken. Dying in childbirth was so common before the advent of modern medicine that men tend to be widowers a lot.
Anyway, for a more secular discussion, our own history has the same thing. The English aristocracy has a long list of titled men marrying later in life. I’m not saying it is the norm during those days. But, it happened more often than you think.
And, if you are not convinced, pick up any historical romance novel and you will find that the women will be in 16-18 in their first “season” as debutantes while the men will be in their late 20s and early 30s when they look for a wife. Men were allowed to “sow their wild oats.” Historical romance novels might not seem a good resource to you but believe me when I say that these authors do their research. I have several friends who are historical romance writers and they are very serious about their craft. :-)
So to me, Brandon’s answer makes sense and it is very plausible even in Roshar.
You said:
I’m not a parent so I don’t know if parents play favorites or not. Only thing I know is that being first born, my parents had higher expectations of me than my younger brother. I had to get straight A’s in school for me to get the “prize” I want. My brother only had to bring home one A and pass all his classes to get what he asked Santa for Christmas. I’m using Santa as a metaphor here, not that we still had Santa Claus after we were 7 years old.
So, I do understand Dalinar being more strict with Adolin. That according to Brandon it is a flaw in Dalinar’s character made me wonder what is the reason why. I will keep an open mind until SA3 while hoping that Brandon will reveal that “flaw” in Dalinar.
From my layman’s point of view, it actually makes sense. I will haphazardly say that Adolin is a child prodigy when it comes to the sword and all the other things that the Vorin religion allow the males to study. He began training with the sword at age 6 when the norm is 10 or 11. And from the looks of it, Adolin is truly a golden child by Alethi standards.
Actually, Gavilar married quite young. 6 years prior to having Elhokar (who is at least 4 years older than Adolin, not 3), he had Jasnah. Dalinar indeed married at an older age, but then again, there has been several quotes, in book, explaining how Adolin was an anomaly for not having married yet. I suspect it may be “acceptable” for a younger son to dwindle away wife-less a while longer, but the heir is likely expected to tied the knot before he reaches 20. Too many people are making a huge fuss over Adolin still being unmarried for it to be considered “acceptable”.
I know it happened and older husband were a common thing, especially during war times, but Alethi are slightly different. Back in WoK, Adolin explains how everyone his age is married… He has pressure. The fact Dalinar is allowing him to roam in his twenties without a wife is looked badly upon. So yes, I’d say Adolin, by refusing/sabotaging relationships is indeed putting himself outside the mold, whether he wants it or not.
As for parents, I’d say most try not to play favorites, but it happens you have more affinities with one child over the other, or one reminds you of yourself more than the other, or one child is naturally more successful than the other and parents tend to focus on the less successful thinking the first one doesn’t need attention as he lacks “problems”… As a whole, parents do tend to be striker with the oldest child when it comes to rules and perhaps expectations, though these can be played out into any child, but usually will relent as the children move into adulthood. Usually, not always though, but playing favorites with your adult children is extremely hurtful and damaging, I’d say.
In the case of Adolin, what has always struck at me is the fact Dalinar was still behaving this way despite the fact his son has grown into adulthood. It also struck me how Dalinar was being heavily forgiving for any mistakes done by either Elhokar or Renarin, but didn’t seem to allow Adolin the latitude to make some himself. In other words, Adolin isn’t allowed to be anything else than the Golden Child of the family and while he seems to be doing well with it, now, it still is quite a deal of pressure to withstand. Everyone makes mistake, nobody is perfect. Perfection does not exist, so to bear on Adolin the pressure to be perfect according to some unseen standard is just ridiculous. Sooner or later, he would have broken the mold. When you have been forced all your life to befit the mold of perfection, when your parents affections are tied to your ability to stay within this mold of perfection, what happens when it breaks away? What happens when you make a mistake and you can’t reconcile it within those expectations? The fact Adolin has gone so long without any hiccup tells me it will be worst for him as he has built in his adult perception of life around this very mold. Had he been a teenager, it would have been easier because the purpose of teenage years is to craft your adult self. Adolin has crafted his adult self upon what Dalinar wished him to be.
It also bodes extremely badly for Dalinar’s reaction to certain action in book 3. If he indeed is bias to go harder on Adolin, then reacting extremely negatively to these news seems a very strong possibility.
There could have been many explanation to this behavior, but Brandon did say it was a flaw, so it isn’t what the author considers a “natural behavior” for a parent. It is a flaw, something which needs to be corrected. Why? Why Adolin? If I read your answer closely, he says it isn’t about Adolin: he didn’t do anything to justify this behavior. Some children will require harder parenting than others, it does happen, but Adolin was no such child. If anything, I’d say he needed the exact opposite while Elhokar needed a firmed hand. Renarin probably needed a reality check. Adolin probably needed more affection, but all in all, Brandon did confirm Dalinar was not behaving entirely right with Adolin here.
So what’s the flaw? Huh.. Here are a few random guesses…
Elhokar and Renarin are the youngest sons, disadvantaged for several reasons: Dalinar identify himself to them, so he goes overly soft with both. He more emotionally inclined to dote on them more as he probably feel he was lacking in affection, but Adolin does’t need it. Adolin is perfect, successful: you always tend to forget the perfect successful child in a house-hold where ones does poorly.
Dalinar is guilty of over-indulging on Elhokar and Renarin because he perceives them as weak and vulnerable. He feels he needs to transfer a lot of affection to them in order to encourage them. He never says a bad word as he fears it would discouraged them, so he gives them all they ask no matter if they earned it or not for fear they would never earn it if not. He over-praised any single one of their successes as he feels they need it more, but by doing so he prevented them from growing up and taking up responsibilities for their actions. He forgot to teach the one needs to do more than ask to get something and being bad at something or even having a disability doesn’t mean you should be entitled to every one of your whims. He prevents them from maturing. On the reverse, Adolin, the strong one, needs to work for everything he has, even his father’s affection as being strong, he can fight. He has no reason not to fight. He can never be vulnerable. He can never need support: he doesn’t have a visible issue, so whatever goes on in his head doesn’t demand attention, but Dalinar forgets this is his son and yes, even the successful perfect child needs a bit of leeway, sometimes and open affection, often.
Adolin, being the oldest gifted handsome child reminds Dalinar of Gavilar, so he has a harder time connecting to him due to this issues with his older brother. He unconsciously goes harder on Adolin as he had wished he had been the oldest.
Dalinar has decided Adolin was THE child. The one to be the perfect exact representation of everything he had ever wanted to be. He transferred his own angst into his son by building him up to be perfect. Encouraged by the fact the boy responded well, he pushed farther. Now he is an adult, he has trouble emotionally connecting with him. He relies on him to be this perfect persona he never was, he needs to know he can do good and Adolin is the best thing he’s created. He’s proud, in a way, but all through his processing he has forgotten his son had needs too and more importantly, he forgot how much he did love him. So it is a flaw: the flaw to enforce perfection in his chosen child while allowing himself to just be a father with the other ones.
Those are just a few thoughts of how it could be a flaw within Dalinar’s nature while not being directly linked to anything Adolin may have done.
Thanks so much Braid_Tug and sheiglagh for those questions and answers! Very interesting. I’m pleased about the RAFO on Parshendi having gemhearts…
@30 Braid_Tug: About Splintered Shards – this WoB may be relevant:
That makes it sound like they have been rejoined. I feel like I saw some other WoB about this where Sanderson was counting Sazed as one Shard, but I haven’t got it in my notes so it might just be my imagination. Anyways, Splintered Shards might be different regardless.
@36 sheiglagh: Ah man, my pet theory about Radiant orders is busted. (Not that it was a great theory in the first place. :P) Anyways, thanks for asking that as well as Gepeto’s questions! I was also curious to see what Brandon Sanderson would say, and you got some great answers. Evidently some of Gepeto’s theories were spot on.
@Gepeto, about Dalinar being hard on Adolin but not Elhokar even though Elhokar IS the king – I suspect that part of what’s going on is how Dalinar is concerned about controlling Elhokar too much and essentially usurping the throne. If he disciplined Elhokar more adequately, Dalinar might feel like he’s manipulating Elhokar and treating strength as the basis for rule – being a “tyrant”, as he comments to Wit. Also, Elhokar could go to other people (at least to some extent) if he didn’t like how Dalinar was treating him. Perhaps if Dalinar personally disciplined him more, rather than just making decisions for him, Elhokar would start going to other highprinces who’d be easier on him for help and advice.
@42: The problem is Dalinar doting and lenient behavior with Elhokar likely isn’t new: it probably was there years before Elhokar got to be king. We have an inkling of it with the Roshone affair… Dalinar didn’t recently changed his behavior: he states on several occasions how much he loves Elhokar. He never says the same about Adolin… We get he loves his son, but he just isn’t very demonstrative of it. It’s subtle, but it is there. We had this whole discussion several threads back. I think the general consensus was I was reading too much into it, but it seems as I did have a point after all. Perhaps not all I have said will come to pass, but I did have a point when I stated Dalinar’s behavior was different and not entirely right.
My understanding is this particular behavior of Dalinar isn’t conscious: I don’t think he woke up one day and decided he would be harder with one son while openly doting on the other one and his nephew/niece. I think he is unconsciously doing it and Adolin being Adolin he certainly will not complain about it. Adolin is rather self-less and seems to believe others need the attention more than he does: it could also be he never truly noticed, too set up in his hero-worshiping of his father, but it is bond to change. Once Adolin starts being the one who needs attention, how is he going to react to see it is not there for him? How can he fail to notice others receive leniency but the one time he screws up, he doesn’t get support? Or perhaps he is just going to go hard on himself since he was raised to meet up to a different standard, so he is going to keep trying for it, but failing will only exacerbate his growing feeling of distress.
After giving this more thoughts, I am thinking the flaw may be akin to Kaladin’s flaw when it comes to judging people. For instances, we see Kaladin being automatically more sympathetic towards individuals he readily associates to Tien or victims as opposed to individuals such as Adolin who just fails to get on his good side. Even Shallan, he needed to hear about her hardships to start seeing her as a human being worthy of his consideration. So all in all, Kaladin needs to know people have suffered or are weak before he can think of liking them. It is a flaw.
Dalinar seems to have a similar flaw as, for some reason, he is more sympathetic, affectionate, doting and forgiving towards Elhokar, Renarin (and probably Jasnah as well based on their few interactions) than Adolin. The problem I see is Kaladin can be excused by being a 20 years old young man who’s bias affects strangers and he is actively working on improving it. Dalinar is a 50 years old man who’s bias affects his own son… that’s somehow worst.
It also tells me a sad potential fact… Had Elhokar or Renarin been the ones to kill Sadeas, Dalinar would have likely been forgiving and strive to protect them, but since it is Adolin… it will be worst.
I also think Dalinar’s character growth has to pass through being a fairer judge of character, to be guiding as opposed as judging and the first step will be through his son. He’ll have to learn his task isn’t to pass judgment or to force people to walk into a tight line, but to guide them towards the right ideals, to help them, to be their light when theirs go dark, not to turn his back on them because they failed, once.
Not to change the subject off of the signing Q&A and Adolin and Dalinar whom are always fascinating…but I’ve so been waiting for this very chapter to point out my own personal “suspension of disbelief” nitpick…
Here we have a woman in a dress that is supposed to completely conceal her left hand, not only climbing a rock ladder but using a varying-sized kinfe/shardblade to create said rock ladder while she climbs it. I’m a rock climber, and so to me it already seems a huge stretch for someone whose social position makes her not likely to climb many things or even exercise much to accomplish such a feat, but hey, she’s a super-human Radiant and she’s desperate, so ok. But she’s got to be holding on with one hand, hacking with the other, so how does the safehand enter into this? Clearly, keeping one hand covered doesn’t mean she can’t also use it, but damn, keeping a layer of cloth over either one of those hands would be hideously annoying and make an already difficult task even more difficult. Granted, it’s life of death, so I’m glad Shallan was all for not dying over cultural modesty issues, but I submit that would have been in-character and in-world for us to see some thoughts from her along the lines of “wow keeping my safehand covered is SERIOUSLY ANNOYING right now” or else “wow I’m embarrassed because my safehand has to be free right now in front of a man,” etc. I mean I know Vorin women have mad skills in the going-about-daily-life one-handed department, but that particular feat seems completely impossible with one hand covered.
Writehld @@@@@ 44 – let’s discuss your point one by one. I am not a rock climber, just for full disclosure but this is how I see it.
1. Shallan might belong to the privileged social class but I do believe she gets a lot of exercise. They don’t have cars during that time and though they have some thing equivalent to a rickshaw, Shallan usually walks when she is Veil. That said, she does get a lot of exercise. In short, she is fit.
2. Shallan just cam from crossing their equivalent of a wilderness with very little convenience. So, though she might be in a carriage that used to be a slave cart. She did not have luxuries. She is a tough girl.
3. She was at sea for an extended period while running after Jasnah. She might not be part of the crew but she still lived in a ship which obviously helped toughen her up.
4. Her shardblade is alive. And apparently there is a telepathic link between them because Patter can be whatever length or shape that Shallan want. In short, she has the proper tool in her hand 99% of the time.
5. I have always thought of the material covering the left hand as very similar to a mitten. It might not have the thumb separated from the rest but there is room to have it opposable. And since Shallan and all the Vorin women are expected to use their left hand that way, they are very skilled in being able to use it.
example in our real wold – running on 3 inch heels is not possible for many people, but have you seen models and die hard fashionistas do it? It’s a sight to behold. They might not win any medals on the 100 meters sprint but they can run.
at the grocery store,mace you seen women cashiers with very long fake nails yet they are very fast in punching all,those keys? I’ve asked many of them how they can do it and almost all of them said – “practice” To me, it means they do it all th time, they don’t even think about it because it is so much a part of them.
6. Shallan was,wearing leggings under her skirt.
7. Rock climbing – I don’t know but I will just put on the awesome factor.
Concerning Dalinar and his treatment of the kiddies:
It always seemed to me that Dalinar is a good judge of character with a blind spot when it comes to his kin. It’s a flaw that he is somewhat aware of, therefore he overcompensates with his folks. In Adolin he sees traces of the Blackthorn so he is overly harsh in the attempt to stave off that particular mindset. Adolin is remarkably well adjusted but as the episode with Sadeas proves that Blackthorn DNA is still floating around in that bloodstream. Renarin is softer, and being a second son like him makes him overcompensate the other way, almost intentionally keeping him soft, giving him all the love and attention he may not have gotten so that he never needs to manifest the Blackthorn. With Kaladin he strikes what I believe to be the perfect balance between stern and fatherly. If I had to make a guess I would say that many of Dalinar’s lieutenants would say the same.
@46: I think Dalinar’s behavior is going to end up being harmful to his kiddies as you say.
He gave Adolin an impossible ideal to meet, worst he tied in his affection to his ability to meet it: the more Adolin approach himself to the perfect son, according to Dalinar, the more Dalinar approves of him. It is very subtle, but it is there. If Adolin starts to be anything less than perfect, Dalinar reacts by giving him orders and being stern.
With Renarin, he was too lenient. He let him rove into his adult life without a goal, without a purpose, without a use. He doted on him, giving him everything he ever asked on a whim, but he failed to give him what he needed the most: direction and a strong reality talk. You will never be a soldier: stop fantasizing you will be one someday and focus on your own strengths. However, since Renarin has no ideal to meet up with, his father’s support, love and affection are unconditional, not matter what he does. Hence, Renarin strives to move away from the family unit, to find what it isn’t providing for him: a purpose. And he is finding it. Slowly. Awkwardly, but I do think he is finding it. Renarin’s way. He doesn’t need his family, if anything they are a hindrance.
Adolin is afraid to venture away from his family cocoon. Brandon said he wasn’t ready for a relationship. Why I asked? The more I think of it, the more I think it is linked to his fear of the unknown. Adolin isn’t ready to leave his family to make up his own: he can’t. He is too dependent on his father’s appraisal which he only receives when he is perfect. If he looses it, who is he?
Does he even know who he is? His last chapter in WoR seem to say he doesn’t. He is his father’s golden child, but who is he, truly?
@44: Personally I always felt in this case, this is a moment when Shallan’s defense mechanism has kind of been primed by the scenario (she already had to block out memories relating to Balat while working on Kaladin’s leg). So while she would usually care, here it falls under the umbrella of uncomfortable things she’s just IGNORING for now because she needs to make a path up.
Plus, although this isn’t as bad as after the confrontation with Tyn, Shallan is colder and more calculating when she is under stress and having to focus on doing something even though what she wants is to curl up into a ball and ride things out. So custom might not matter too much to her in these couple of hours right before the storm hits.
@Braid_Tug and @sheiglagh: although I didn’t offer any, thanks for asking questions and then posting the WoB here. It also helped keep the conversation going even if it’s a bit of a detour.
FenrirMoridin @48 – “Shallan is colder and more calculating when she is under stress and having to focus on doing something even though what she wants is to curl up into a ball and ride things out.” And… that’s foreshadowing, right there. ;)
@Gepeto: Ah, I’d been forgetting about the Roshone business. We don’t have much data to work from here, but that would seem to indicate that Dalinar has been soft on Elhokar from early on.
Anyways, nice analysis. I don’t have much to add, just fun to read as always. You’d got a good point that Dalinar’s relationship with Elhokar and his sons is tied to the character development that seems to be in store for him. Dalinar’s key struggles have always been about being a leader, how to focus and guide people and listen to them without unreasonable expectations or stern judgment. Those conflicts will only magnify if he becomes the leader of the Radiants as a Bondsmith. So I see how his relationship with Adolin, highlighted in the fallout after Sadeas’s death, could fit very nicely into that. And coinciding with his flashbacks, too. Argh, seeing the pieces of the story begin to fall into place really makes me want to read Oathbringer…
Anyways, FenrirMoridin also brought up Dalinar’s relationship with Kaladin – I hope that plays an important role, too. I’ve really enjoyed seeing their relationship so far; Sanderson has written it wonderfully slowly and subtly, with nuance. I wonder if Dalinar will learn more about Kaladin’s involvement with the assassination attempt, and how he might react to that…
@50: I believe you meant EvilMonkey lol.
Although I’m glad you brought that up because I did want to add something to that part of the conversation as well: a large part of why Dalinar would be better with Kaladin and the rest of his men is that he doesn’t have that direct family connection. Although I can’t say anything for how he was as the Blackthorn, modern Dalinar seems very much like he has the right instincts for being a good father, but if he overthinks it he kind of loses his way a bit. In a way he can see Kaladin and his men more as people than his actual children and nephew, where he also wants to do right by them in consideration of their political importance (Adolin and Elkohar), their condition (Renarin and Adolin, I’m including Adolin in this regard due to potential worries over the Blackthorn passing on), and their relation (while this applies to all 3 I mean more specifically Elkohar, who can’t help but remind Dalinar of his brother and all that entails).
Admittedly, this isn’t exactly a rare problem in parenting, especially on the fatherhood side of the equation. So there’s other stuff at play I’m sure. But I feel like that’s a big part of it.
Also Kaladin benefits from Dalinar having made those mistakes with the others, so he either makes less mistakes or they aren’t as severe.
Plus (oh geez this is a run-on comment), Dalinar and Kaladin are fairly close in the Honor spectrum, which helps them understand one another. So in a way Kaladin is the one who most closely aligns with Dalinar, which Gepeto brought up earlier as something that informs parenting (and indeed it also informs just general interaction), so that helps as well.
Although all that said, it’s really hard to judge Dalinar’s parenting beyond very broad strokes because so much needs to be speculation based on his children and how he is now, when we know Dalinar the Blackthorn was a very different individual, as well as having no idea what the mother exactly did in this scenario. More reason to be excited for Oathbringer then! :D
Super excited for Oathbringer too. It will be awesome to get a clearer picture of the greatest General of his age. I want to get some clarification on the flaw Brandon talks about during the signing. Is this flaw the same one he admitted to during the courting of Navani, you know, the one where he speaks about being a man of extremes, or is it something else?
@50: It is true we are lacking the key details when it comes to the Roshone affair, a fact I have highlighted several threads back. This being said, we have ample of examples where Dalinar is seen to be lenient, forgiving, louse and over-proctective when it comes to Elhokar/Renarin. The first one which comes to mind is the chasmfiend hunt. Dalinar, despite closely following the codes which forbids any activity susceptible of harming soldiers/officers in a time of war gave his whole support for the hunt of a dangerous wild beast just so Elhokar could get a chance to go on the Plains while pathetically trying to exerce his leadership. Adolin is the one who gets struck by the chasmfiend, but Elhokar is the one Dalinar openly worries about. Elhokar is the one Dalinar forces to remain behind, Adolin is the one he uses to attack. This isn’t much, there is nothing wrong in this scene so to speak, but it sets the pace. Shortly after, we have Renarin who threatens to throw himself into the chasm if Dalinar keeps on preventing him to become a soldier, a jest which ends by Dalinar promising his youngest son to give him a Plate.
It probably is not significant at all, but shortly after Adolin ask for the right, for once, just this specific evening, to be allowed to drink more than one glass of wine. The answer is NO. Worst, his father threatens him to basically throw him out of the household shall he ever disobey: “As long as you are of my house, you will obey my rules.”.
The codes say the best weapons should go the most worthy soldier, a fact Renarin promptly tells his father when Dalinar promises him a Plate. He is resigned. He has saw how strongly his father is implementing the codes, but Dalinar brushes it away: he may make an exception for his own son.
But when Adolin ask for just one evening outside of the pressure of always being on duty, of always being an officer, when he asks for the chance to be allowed to be a young man like all the other young men: he is refused. The codes are fixed.
What is the most damaging to the warfare effort? Wasting away one of your army’s most powerful weapon on an untrained unfit sick kid who is unlikely to ever use it in combat just because he wishes to try or awarding one evening off to your best soldier and most promising officer so he could recharge his batteries?
I could go on and highlight every single instances where Dalinar’s parenting made me tick. It is not overly obvious and Dalinar does not do anyting particularly wrong, but at the same time, he does it. It is so subtle.
Dalinar has trouble with leadership, true enough, but he also has his own demons which reflects themselve into his relationship with his elder son. Whatever the reason might be, Dalinar Kholin is withholding a side him to Adolin.
It is probably why his “relationship” with Kaladin frustrates and angers me: he is genuinely offering to a complete stranger his softer side, his paternal side, his lenient side when he is completely refusing it to his own son. The unfairness of it just gets to me each time: How can you let a pure stranger get away with so much when you force you own son to walk into such a tight line?
Ialai had it right: Adolin is a tool. Dalinar’s tool.
Aaaaargh.
Just because one child is more successful than the other, just because one child doesn’t have a disability while the other does, just because one child is good at everything society wants him to be good does not mean you should withholds your affection or worst tied in your affection to his ability to keep on being so perfect.
Affection, open care should never, never, never, NEVER be linked to one’s child “performance”. It should never be more freely given to the disabled, troubled, weak one on the assumption the “other one” doesn’t need it.
@49 – Wet, now that is just MEAN!! I want to be a beta reader! (but I don’t think I’d be very good at it, it takes a lot for me to be pulled out by discontinuity)
Fredweena @54 – :D I’m so malicious…
But actually, it’s just foreshadowing for something I’ll talk about in the Chapter 73 reread later this week, because that’s exactly what happens. I haven’t yet seen any of SA3 (except the two flashback excerpts he’s read at signings), and probably won’t see it for 4-6 months yet. Maybe more, depending on one thing and another.
(ETA – if it were foreshadowing for the next book, I wouldn’t be able to say it. Even hinting that a particular situation will come up, or some question be resolved – or even addressed – would be saying too much. You wouldn’t believe the number of comments I deleted before posting on the TWoK reread.)
@51 FenrirMoridin: Whoops, sorry! I guess I subconsciously felt a need to return the favor after a comment I made got mistaken for someone else’s in last chapter’s discussion. :) But yes. Good thoughts on Dalinar and Kaladin. They have this sort of weird tension in their relationship, because they’ve seen how they’re similar in very deep, fundamental ways under intense circumstances – and yet they don’t know each other that well, and they still don’t quite trust each other. Like you said, they’re close in the Honor spectrum, and they realized that in just about the most dramatic way possible when Kaladin saved Dalinar and Dalinar traded his Shardblade for the bridgemen. (The “What is a man’s life worth?” scene is one of the best in TWoK IMO.) They’ve seen into each other’s souls, but all those other more surface details of character, personality, &c still aren’t familiar. The relationship is very different from the sort of easy blind familiarity of a family relationship.
@53 Gepeto: I see your frustration about Dalinar’s treatment of Adolin, and I absolutely agree with you that he should show more care to Adolin – but as I was discussing above, Kaladin is not a complete stranger. Both Dalinar and Kaladin spend most of TWoK mostly alone in their pursuit of honor, and then in that crazy climax they save each other and see that there is someone else out there who is willing to make huge sacrifices to do the right thing. Dalinar has a deep tie to Kaladin and knows something very significant and fundamental about his character, even if, again, Dalinar doesn’t know the rest of him and doesn’t completely trust him. Kaladin’s not a stranger – but then, he’s not close either. It’s an odd situation. So I can see why Dalinar may be willing to be fatherly towards Kaladin (even while also thinking that he is not treating Adolin well).
But that’s just a nitpick. I essentially agree with you.
I disagree that Dalinar shows bad parenting skills when it comes to Adolin. We see him in his military commander role and should not jump to the conclusion that this characterizes his entire relationship with this son. A commander must enforce discipline lest his ability to command suffer. Adolin can’t be given free reign lest it be taken as a license by other officers under his command. If Adolin is placed under more restrictions – and this is not clear, it may simply be a byproduct of being visible to both his father and to the rest of Dalinar’s camp. Dalinar’s statement of what is demanded of a family member is not tantamount to a threat to disinherit him if he doesn’t conform. As to the other son, Renarin, he is not part of Dalinar’s army and can be treated simply as his son. Promising him shardplate can be seen as a means of countering his ‘blood weakness’ as well as offering protection should Renarin insist on accompanying them on military mssions. His relationship with Kaladin is more like a peer interaction given their initial experience. Kaladin is too independent and indifferent to authority to be simply given orders – although Dalinar does invoke his command authority when Kaladin expresses anger at his imprisonment. With Kaladin you have to ask and he will perform beyond reasonable expectations – you don’t command him and expect the same results. With Adolin, their private relationship is one of mutual respect. Dalinar listens to and respects his son’s views. It is only in the outward trappings (clothing) and behavior (not drinking alcoholic wine) that the father exerts his parental and command authority.
As to Elhokar, the king is not subject to his uncle’s command. The hunt was his idea and Dalinar was hardly enthusiastic. Nor was Elhokar left behind in the attack on the chasm-fiend. In fact, he led the attack but did not fully participate as a result of being unhorsed and nearly killed by the beast. I certainly don’t recall Adolin being wounded but still being allowed to engage. In fact, he was largely responsible for disabling the the chasm-fiend, while Dalinar protected the fallen king. In any case, there is no indication from this episode early in WOK that Dalinar cares more about Elhokear than Adolin. In fact, the one example of Dalinar using violence to enforce a point with his family occurs near the end of WOK when he nearly crushes his nephew, the paranoic king, to teach him a graphic lesson on who could really kill him should he so choose, but wont.
STBLST@57
Good point on only seeing Dalinar and Adolin’s relationship in a purely military context and not in a familial setting. There haven’t been many scenes with them sitting by the hearth fires sharing life lessons and whatnot. But the Alethi are at war and Adolin is essentially Dalinar’s second-in-command. Not much time to focus on much other than the business of warfare. By holding Adolin to a higher standard it actually strengthens discipline in his army. If his own son is held to the standard, how can anyone complain about their own treatment in comparison? And who knows? They just might act and react differently in a less dire situation. There has to be a reason Adolin is so well adjusted. I’m sure his temperment plays a factor but if Dalinar was that bad it stretches believability that Adolin turns out as good as he is. Not disputing the idea that Dalinar is tougher on Adolin, just the degree. Statically significant but not overwhelmingly so.
As for Kaladin, he was in need of a good commander to become his best military self, to harness his great potential. He’s found what I believe to be the best Roshar has available in Dalinar. Often the commander/subordinate relationship mimics a father/son relationship; many of the mentoring aspects are the same. From this relationship we can infer something close to the beginnings of Adolin/Dalinar as he joined the army and probably how Adolin was raised. Doesn’t seem that bad to me but other’s opinions may vary.
What I do wonder, is if Shallan made another step in her Lightweaving skill here?
We might not know it at the time, but Pattern is “trapped” in his Blade-form, so Shallan shouldn’t be able to use him for her Lightweaving right?
IIRC so far Shallan had to use Pattern for “moving” projections outside of her body, only the one’s surrounding her did work without Pattern as a “carrier.” But here both the Kaladin projection and “herself” move around, while Kaladin is still holding the Shardblade.
So is she just more skilled or is it a “level-up”? or do I misunderstand something?
Tried to post this earlier, but tor.com had one of it’s hiccups. Sorry if I am repeating something that has already been mentioned.
While I am not a huge fan of Kaladin, I really enjoy the chasms chapters and have no problem with Kaladin and Shallan working together being able to kill a chasmfiend, that was very much constrained in it’s movements. With a lot of luck, of course. To me, it answered the question re: Kaladin’s warrior abilities too – i.e. they didn’t all come from Syl, he is a gifted warrior even without her, though not a patch on what he is able to do with Stormlight and surges. As to his ability to move despite his wounded leg – well isn’t the movie “Revenant”, where a severely mauled guy managed to cross vast distances through wilderness and partly hostile one at that, based on an actual RL story?
Writelhd @44:
You are right. But then, normal people iRL sometimes perform amazing feats in extreme situations, so between adrenaline and Stormlight enhancement I’ll give Shallan a break. OTOH, I don’t see how the whole safehand thing and different food for different genders + children’s food could plausibly work for lower classes anyway, even with a glove, as women still seem largely responsible for food preparation and household chores, which require frequent contact with liquids by both hands. Allso the whole women = artists notion kinda falls apart too, as a glove would be very much in the way in both visual arts and instrumental music. So, yea, the whole conceit of safehand isn’t very plausible, IMHO.
I also don’t think that the theory of Parshendi having gemhearts that came up in the comments to previous chapters is likely, since their remains had been mashed up and dragged around by the floods as they decayed, so crews sent to scavenge in the chasms certainly would have stumbled on something like that eventually. Not to mention the long history of parshmen enslavement, which guarantees that such a curious/potentially lucrative aspect of their physiology would have been discovered long since. The parshmen/endi also have orange blood, not the violet of gemheart-producing animals, so they aren’t that closely related.
I do agree with Gepeto that we should have had Adolin’s PoV chapter reacting top the fall of the bridge and his choice of his father over Shallan and/or to her and Kaladin’s upcoming return, preferrably both. I have thought on my first read that this lack was odd and jarring.
The WoB about Dalinar’s relationship with Adolin is interesting and fits the narrative. However, I’d like to point out a couple of things that likely affected it and seem to have been ignored in the discussion so far:
Elhokar wasn’t and isn’t Dalinar’s child, so comparison of his treatment to Adolin’s misses the point, IMHO. Dalinar couldn’t play the father to him while Gavilar was alive – he had neither the right, nor the authority to do so. And once his older brother was dead, Elhokar was his king and social superior, so the dynamic had to be very different and much more complicated.
As to Renarin, it is very likely that his impairments greatly contributed to the perceived need for Adolin to be the strong, perfect heir. Not just because Dalinar may have had a soft spot for/identified more with his younger son, but because Renarin wasn’t a viable “spare”, whose existence could have provided Adolin with some amount of leeway. As the things stood, Adolin had to be “it” and his failure would have spelled disaster for the cadet branch of Kholins, if not for the whole family. And yea, I hope that the narrative aknowledges and explores Dalinar’s issues re: Adolin in the future. The up-coming volume seems tailor-made for it being “his” book and all.
What on earth is happening to tor.com? I was unable to post the above comment while logged in. I’d click “post comment” and nothing would happen. No reaction at all. Had to log out and post like that for my comment go through. Firefox, Seamonkey, IE under Windows 7, on 2 different PCs to boot!
@@@@@ 61
Yeah, Tot dot has been wonky like that ever since the so-called upgrade. When I try to post a comment it almost never works on the first try, just like you just described. So then I have to copy the comment, log out, close my internet browser, open it up again, log back in and then paste the comment in the comment box just to get it to post. Its the main reason I usually just read the posts on the site now and comment very little. Its a huge pain in the ass.
@56: The problem I see with Dalinar’s behavior towards Kaladin is not so much the behavior by itself, which can be explained by the arguments you have brought forward, it is the fact he is denying his own son of a similar treatment. So all in all, the problem remains with the fact Dalinar has a double-standard: one for Adolin, one for everyone else. Moreover, he isn’t letting his oldest son being on the receiving end of his fatherly attentions. I once said Dalinar had two hats: Highprince and Father. He is allowing himself to be the father towards Renarin, Elhokar and even Kaladin, but Adolin practically, nearly always sees the Highprince. Oh the father is there, but it is buried deep behind the words “duties” and “responsibilities”.
@57: The author has just agreed Dalinar was not treating Adolin entirely right. While I don’t disagree with the points you make, the problem I have is everyone is allowed leeway when it comes to the application of the codes, everyone by Adolin.
Adolin is placed under more restrictions than everyone else, a fact also confirmed by Brandon. Everyone else is allowed to have free days, the bridgemen certainly are allowed to enjoy themselves when off-duty while Adolin is never off-duty. He has to obey to a rigid code even when he is not set up to go on the Plains. Always. Moreover, the only times he receives something akin to care/love/attention is when he acts exactly according to the plan. To further my point, when Adolin gets injured at the end of WoR, Dalinar rushes to him and cradles him in what has to be one of the rare moments where he gets to be a father, but it is short lived as his first words are to, again, reinforce duties and responsibilities. Couldn’t he just have asked: “Are you alright? Are you hurting?” before he got to the “take the kingdom” part? You know, just out of care…? Just as any parents would have asked…
Therefore, the problem isn’t Dalinar is enforcing discipline into this army: it is he is refusing his son the same privileges he freely gives away to those he sees as his “proteges”. Adolin is not just one of his generals, he is his son. He is a human being. And nobody can be expected to walk into such a tight line, always forced to confirm to an ideal of perfection, to be the picture perfect model of obedience at all time. Always. Other soldiers generals get to have a life outside their duties: not Adolin. His entire life is his duties. He doesn’t have anything else: his father won’t let him.
So yes, Dalinar is too hard on Adolin and the author referred to it as “a character flaw”.
Also giving the Plate to Renarin was a severe breach into the code as there was absolutely no reason to have him take part of any military operations. Giving him the Plate was simply trying to please him, to dote on him. The problem isn’t so much he does it, he is allowed to spoil his son if he wants too, the problem is he makes a strong point to apply the codes to the letter with Adolin, but he breaches them easily for Renarin… and for Elhokar as the hunt likely was against the code. How can the codes be the most important thing to maintain at all cost to the point where Adolin has NOT been allowed one night off in 6 YEARS, but when it comes to Renarin, they can be shoved down the sewer?
If this isn’t unfair behavior, I do not know what is.
@58: Adolin is well adjusted because he never failed. He has successfully met all of his father’s expectations with relative easiness. He never had to face his incapacity to be so perfect, but nobody can spend a lifetime being perfect. Sooner or later, Adolin was bond to make a mistake: it is only normal he would. I’d also say Adolin self-less nature made him less prone to question why his father was giving more leeway to everyone else but him: it is quite likely he feels good being exactly what his father wants him to be. It is even possible his entire self-confidence is tied in to his ability to meet those expectations: the more perfect he is, the more Dalinar approves so the more he strives to be even more… perfect.
The amount of pressure is unbelievably high: he isn’t allowed to make a mistake! He isn’t allowed to be young.
@60: I am glad you think it fits the narrative as well. I was happy to have confirmation on one of my pseudo-theory.
Elhokar may not be Dalinar’s child, Dalinar treats him as if he were.
Great thoughts on Renarin. I think it gives a good explanation as to why Adolin has the pressure to be perfect, though I think there also is something tied to Dalinar’s personality or past into the behavior as well.
As for the missing POV, yeah, it sucks. I wonder if it is missing because it would have been too spoiler-y for future developments or if it is missing because the author didn’t think it was important to explore Adolin’s thoughts?
@61 and @62 – I flagged your comments to get Moderator attention. Not sure why it should be behaving so badly. I rarely (though not never) have issues with posting comments… although it did lose all my formatting when I uploaded this weeks reread. That was new. Had to spend a while reformatting everything.
@60 Isilel: Those problems with the theory of Parshendi having gemhearts have come up before, and I think they’re more or less valid. The only thing is that Parshendi would likely have gemhearts much smaller than those of chasmfiends and other large creatures, so they’d probably be easy to miss. But at any rate, my tendency is to think that Parshendi don’t have gemhearts, but that there’s something related going on. (Especially after the RAFO.)
@63 Gepeto: Okay, I see what you mean about Kaladin and Dalinar. I guess I would tend to appreciate Dalinar and Kaladin’s relationship simply because it is a good relationship, regardless of the fact that it may highlight a problem in another of Dalinar’s relationships. So I agree with you, but I don’t share your frustration when I see Dalinar and Kaladin interacting.
On the lack of an Adolin POV here: There’s a wide variety of reasons I can think of that Brandon Sanderson may have chosen not to have an Adolin POV bit after the fall into the chasms. Maybe there wasn’t really space, maybe it interfered with pacing, maybe it distracted from the narrative/thematic focus of the chasm scenes, maybe he thought Adolin’s feelings came out decently enough in his interactions with Shallan afterwards that it wasn’t worth the pacing/focus problems an additional POV may have introduced. It does disappoint me that he missed the opportunity to further explore Adolin and his relationships, but I can see how he may have many good reasons to make that decision.
The chapter in question could have gone right after they fell into the chasm and right before they woke up. It then wouldn’t have broken up the pacing and it would have left the readers all the more anxious to figure out what happened to Shallan/Kaladin.
As for book length, he could have easily resume Kaladin’s time in prison in less page time: most of it was repetitive and in terms of pacing not great. This partcicular story could have been told in less than 4 chapters. Or he could have cut up elsewhere. The chapter wouldn’t have needed to be very long.
All in all there were ways to include the missing POV without ruining the book structure, the pacing or elongating it uselessly. Had he want to, he would have found places for it.
So my take is either it would have contained details he’d rather not tell us right now or it’s because it deals with Adolin and Adolin isn’t as important as a character as the others. So whatever happens to him only gets explored if the main narrative demands so: this particluar main narrative didn’t need Adolin in it. The readers, however, don’t tend to care so much about such things and many have expressed their disappointement they didn’t get to read it. So while Adolin is not crucial nor important to the main narrative, he is important to many readers, hence the dilemma.
As for Dalinar’s behavior, I do not think I possess the right words nor the right persona to fully succeed in expressing why it angers me so. I’d simply conclude in saying it is horribly unfair of him and it is doubly unfair the recipient of this unfairness doesn’t receive any sympathy for it due to falling at “being broken”.
@63 Gepato: Dalinar’s reasoning on giving Renarin the plate was that he assumed he was incapable of producing a child with no military abilities. His motivation in giving Renarin the plate was to allow “his natural talent to shine through”, not because Renarin demanded it. Dalinar expects that once Renarin’s blood weakness is “removed”, enough training will see Renarin reach a level of skill close to Adolin’s- that’s hardly a waste of a plate , although the assumption is wrong.
Adolin does have a life outside of duty. He has his (dubious) courtships, and in Way of Kings we see him dueling despite the codes’ prohibition of doing such a thing. He also spends time with his friends- from across several different war camps. Yes, Dalinar is hard on him, but Adolin is an officer as well as his son, and you can bet Dalinar would never allow any of his other officers more than one (still moderately strong) glass of wine before expecting them to move on to an unlimited amount of the far weaker stuff. (“one cup of blue. After that, stick to the orange.”) It’s worth noting that he also expects Renarin to follow the same rules, despite the fact Renarin is not a soldier.
With regards to Kaladin, Dalinar sticks him in charge of two honour guards with barely a month’s worth of experience, after a year as a slave, with no real experience in command prior to that. Which, yeah, means Kaladin pretty much gets away with a lot of stuff. It also doesn’t do Kaladin any favours- he’d have benefited more from Dalinar paying closer attention to what he was doing, that way, Kaladin might have learnt to trust Dalinar more quickly. I think Dalinar fails Kaladin just as much as he fails Adolin, albeit in different ways. Kaladin also fails Dalinar, which is where the difference between him and Adolin lies.
Gepeto @63:
I disagree about Elhokar. Dalinar does feel responsible for him, but he didn’t treat him as his own child, nor did he have any right to do so. In fact, Dalinar taking over to the degree that he has, was really damaging to Elhokar’s standing as a king and could have been disastrous, if the latter had been better ruler material. To do even more without direct usurpation would have been incredibly damaging to Kholins and to the notion of united Alethi kingship. It was never up to Dalinar whether the chasmfiend hunt took place or any other of the things that went against the Code, which happened on royal orders. That is not the example of coddling at all, but of Dalinar being unable to openly oppose Elhokar without effectively rebelling against his kingship and his authority. Adolin is lower than Dalinar in the chain of command, but Elhokar was technically his superior, until the emergence of Radiants at least, so the relationships between him and the 2 young men aren’t really comparable.
As to giving Renarin the Plate – well, it may have been coddling, but there are other things to consider too. First of all, both Dalinar and Adolin have nearly died at the end of WoK, which would have left Renarin a Highprince. And quite a defenceless one at that, ripe for being eaten alive by his new collegues. Now, we don’t know much about Renarin’s other strengths, and some Highprinces seem to be holding their own without military prowess or the shards, though given Alethi warlike and quarellsome nature, I am not sure how it could have worked out for them. But it seems very likely that if he succeded to the Princedom, Renarin would have been challenged by force of arms in some way, _especially_ because his immediate elders have such high military reputation.
Additinally, Dalinar seems to have lost rose glasses that he had re: Elhokar in WoK, and finally realized that if he and Adolin were gone, the king couldn’t hold their family or their Princedom together. Thus, it became rather important to give Renarin a chance, no matter how small, if worse came to worst. Giving him the Plate, so that he could get military training, have some protection and maybe participate in battles and such, might have been part of that.
As to missing Adolin’s reaction PoV to the events on the bridge – well, personally, I just chalk it up as an oversight. No book is perfect, after all, I have quibbles even with those I love, so… We may still get him thinking about it in hindsight in Oathbringer, as he’d have good reasons to ruminate over his relationship with Shallan.
P.S. Hurrah! The posting worked normally.
Billiam @62:
I had my problems with the new tor.com in the past, but they were limited to the comments refusing to display or the site randomly logging me out. This inability to post yesterday was new and unpleasant. Glad that it seems to be over.
Off-topic compared to the last few dozen comments but Andrews comment @6 (where he regrets to not remember his first time reaction) prompted me to look up if I do “remember” (I did make some scant notes of my first-read reaction. They are not exhaustive because it meant to stop my reading).
About ch. 72 I wrote the following: “The fact that Shallan’s blade doesn’t hurt Kaladin must mean she conjured it herself, as Syl has hinted that Kaladin could make his own blade.”
In contrast to then, I now think that at the time Kaladin really wouldn’t have felt a dead-spren Shardblade. But first-time reading I obviously didn’t (or didn’t want to) believe that Kaladin’s bond with Syl was irrevocably broken which led me to the correct conclusion about the Shardblade. :)
@66 Gepeto: Eh, I’m not sure I would agree with your specific proposed solutions for various reasons. That’s rather beside the point, though; I do think that Sanderson could have fit it in decently somehow – but there would be trade-offs. Evidently his judgement was that the trade-offs were too much given that POV’s level of significance. The fact that he does touch on Adolin’s reaction in the conversation with Shallan after the chasms shows that he thought some about Adolin’s response, at any rate. You can take or leave Sanderson’s decision; I for one think he made a justifiable narrative choice, even if it’s not necessarily the one I would’ve made.
To go back to an old topic that I’ve been meaning to say something about for a while…
@27, 28 on the coded epigraph: It does seem to indicate that Taravangian could somehow trigger a Recreance and thus destroy the new Radiants. Specific knowledge is one possible trigger; it could also be some sort of magical power/artifact/whatever. But that word “broke” makes me pause. We’ve generally seen it used to refer to the specific “brokenness” that’s required for Surgebinding. So why use it here? Is there a connection? The word “hold” also strikes me as odd. There’s definitely more to the Recreance than we know now, but I think there’s also something more to that epigraph.
She DOES hate the Blade. Even more than he does.